Comments on: Rules Grand Jury: Magic Missile v. Oscar The Grouch http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php Never Adventure Alone Tue, 06 Dec 2011 07:02:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Losing Our Interviewginity | StupidRanger.com http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-3363 Losing Our Interviewginity | StupidRanger.com Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:03:25 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-3363 [...] he talked me out of most of the strange ideas I was having, but we did decide to try to answer one long-standing argument from the archives. (You’ll just have to wait around for the interview to find out how that [...] [...] he talked me out of most of the strange ideas I was having, but we did decide to try to answer one long-standing argument from the archives. (You’ll just have to wait around for the interview to find out how that [...]

]]> By: John http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-747 John Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:49:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-747 Is Oscar a PC or NPC? if NPC, MM hits<br/><br/>If Oscar has a readied action to "close the lid" when "wizard starts casting", how does he know when to close the lid? When he hears the spell? When he sees the wizard twitching his fingers and making odd gestures?<br/><br/>How about if the spell is cast with Metamagic feats Still Spell and Silent Spell? What triggers the readied action?<br/><br/>Is there any more beer in the fridge? Is Oscar a PC or NPC? if NPC, MM hits

If Oscar has a readied action to “close the lid” when “wizard starts casting”, how does he know when to close the lid? When he hears the spell? When he sees the wizard twitching his fingers and making odd gestures?

How about if the spell is cast with Metamagic feats Still Spell and Silent Spell? What triggers the readied action?

Is there any more beer in the fridge?

]]> By: Nick http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-738 Nick Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:35:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-738 Oh crap. I was totally on board with this then StupidRanger said, [I don't believe the barrier posed by the garbage can would actually stop a magic missile from it's target; armor doesn't stop it from hitting a fighter.]<br/><br/>And it got me thinking about armor and line of sight. If a character is completely encased in armor a mage would still have line-of-sight. Naturally, you don't have to see someone's skin to target them.<br/><br/>No I have never seen Oscar outside of his garbage can (which brings up the question if the garbage can is part of him, but I'm not going there). I would assume that it would function just like a suit of armor, regardless the spell would hit him if the lid was open or not, just as a spell would hit a fighter in field plate wether the visor was open or not. Oh crap. I was totally on board with this then StupidRanger said, [I don't believe the barrier posed by the garbage can would actually stop a magic missile from it's target; armor doesn't stop it from hitting a fighter.]

And it got me thinking about armor and line of sight. If a character is completely encased in armor a mage would still have line-of-sight. Naturally, you don’t have to see someone’s skin to target them.

No I have never seen Oscar outside of his garbage can (which brings up the question if the garbage can is part of him, but I’m not going there). I would assume that it would function just like a suit of armor, regardless the spell would hit him if the lid was open or not, just as a spell would hit a fighter in field plate wether the visor was open or not.

]]> By: A. W. Wright http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-735 A. W. Wright Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:45:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-735 3.5e rules say you cannot damage inanimate objects with Magic Missile, so the trash can cannot take damage. How about applying quantum physics: A world in which Magic Missile is cast, and one in which the target takes cover, cannot co-exist. 3.5e rules say you cannot damage inanimate objects with Magic Missile, so the trash can cannot take damage. How about applying quantum physics: A world in which Magic Missile is cast, and one in which the target takes cover, cannot co-exist.

]]> By: Noumenon http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-717 Noumenon Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:17:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-717 <i>Commen Sense Answer: As rules lawyer answer, except rather than the action being completely wasted, the magic missiles strike and damage the can, likely penetrating the thin aluminum and still dealing full damage to the grouch.</i><br/><br/>Rules Lawyer comeback: Magic Missile <a HREF="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm" REL="nofollow">doesn't deal damage to inanimate objects.</a> That doesn't really make sense for a pellet <i>or</i> a laser, does it? Commen Sense Answer: As rules lawyer answer, except rather than the action being completely wasted, the magic missiles strike and damage the can, likely penetrating the thin aluminum and still dealing full damage to the grouch.

Rules Lawyer comeback: Magic Missile doesn’t deal damage to inanimate objects. That doesn’t really make sense for a pellet or a laser, does it?

]]> By: Asmor http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-715 Asmor Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:34:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-715 That just seems silly. For that matter, why not give the fighter a reflex save every time he's attacked to block with his shield? Or give the barbarian a reflex save before every will save so that he can stop thinking about shiny things and try to concentrate on erecting mental barriers? That just seems silly. For that matter, why not give the fighter a reflex save every time he’s attacked to block with his shield? Or give the barbarian a reflex save before every will save so that he can stop thinking about shiny things and try to concentrate on erecting mental barriers?

]]> By: thanuir http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-714 thanuir Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:14:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-714 Assuming no readied actions on either side: Osacar gets a reflex save to have the missile hit the garbage can due to the mage not being fast enough at casting the spell to target Oscar.<br/><br/>When in doubt, roll the dice. Assuming no readied actions on either side: Osacar gets a reflex save to have the missile hit the garbage can due to the mage not being fast enough at casting the spell to target Oscar.

When in doubt, roll the dice.

]]> By: Your G(rinning) M(asochist) http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-712 Your G(rinning) M(asochist) Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:02:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-712 I agree with the view of if he has a readied action to close the lid, they can't hit him. The assumption I have is that if he didn't, then he either wasn't fast enough to close them, or he was distracted by his other actions. If he did, then he's no longer a valid target for the spell. Since 3.5 magic missile can't target an object, the spell cannot be cast at Oscar. The question of whether the mage can select a new target or if the spell is wasted is left as an exercise to the reader. I agree with the view of if he has a readied action to close the lid, they can’t hit him. The assumption I have is that if he didn’t, then he either wasn’t fast enough to close them, or he was distracted by his other actions. If he did, then he’s no longer a valid target for the spell. Since 3.5 magic missile can’t target an object, the spell cannot be cast at Oscar. The question of whether the mage can select a new target or if the spell is wasted is left as an exercise to the reader.

]]> By: Scott http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-710 Scott Wed, 06 Aug 2008 05:12:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-710 In my mind, there's one question that needs to be answered here:<br/><br/>Can the wizard, standing 300 feet away, see Oscar, who's peering through an inch-wide gap?<br/><br/>If so, then he has line of sight and line of effect. The spell is instantaneous, so Oscar cannot act after it was fired and avoid it, any more than he could drop prone behind a waist-high wall had he been standing behind one. <br/><br/>(A readied action might change this, but it would occur before the missiles were fired, which renders the question moot.)<br/><br/>If the wizard cannot see Oscar, he cannot target Oscar with the spell.<br/><br/>The wizard's Spot check penalty at 300' is -30. Assuming the wizard has a Wisdom of 30 and the maximum 11 ranks of cross-class Spot training, that's still a net -9 to his roll. If Oscar is hiding in the can, there's very little chance he's a valid target, unless the wizard's got other magic operating. If Oscar is not hiding, but simply difficult to see, the wizard's chances are better.<br/><br/>Assuming the wizard sees Oscar and casts the spell, though, Oscar is toast. In my mind, there’s one question that needs to be answered here:

Can the wizard, standing 300 feet away, see Oscar, who’s peering through an inch-wide gap?

If so, then he has line of sight and line of effect. The spell is instantaneous, so Oscar cannot act after it was fired and avoid it, any more than he could drop prone behind a waist-high wall had he been standing behind one.

(A readied action might change this, but it would occur before the missiles were fired, which renders the question moot.)

If the wizard cannot see Oscar, he cannot target Oscar with the spell.

The wizard’s Spot check penalty at 300′ is -30. Assuming the wizard has a Wisdom of 30 and the maximum 11 ranks of cross-class Spot training, that’s still a net -9 to his roll. If Oscar is hiding in the can, there’s very little chance he’s a valid target, unless the wizard’s got other magic operating. If Oscar is not hiding, but simply difficult to see, the wizard’s chances are better.

Assuming the wizard sees Oscar and casts the spell, though, Oscar is toast.

]]> By: Stupid Ranger http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.php/comment-page-1#comment-709 Stupid Ranger Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:54:00 +0000 http://www.stupidranger.com/2008/08/rules-grand-jury-magic-missile-v-oscar-the-grouch.html#comment-709 I have to believe that mages aren't stupid enough to attempt to cast magic missile into a 2 inch slit.<br/><br/>Okay, well, maybe they are stupid enough to try, but they know it would waste a spell given the improbability of success.<br/><br/>That said, if they really did attempt it, I don't believe the barrier posed by the garbage can would actually stop a magic missile from it's target; armor doesn't stop it from hitting a fighter. I have to believe that mages aren’t stupid enough to attempt to cast magic missile into a 2 inch slit.

Okay, well, maybe they are stupid enough to try, but they know it would waste a spell given the improbability of success.

That said, if they really did attempt it, I don’t believe the barrier posed by the garbage can would actually stop a magic missile from it’s target; armor doesn’t stop it from hitting a fighter.

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